pandaemonaeum | I am utterly sickened

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I am utterly sickened

By the attitudes of some people who claim to be opened minded, and part of a subculture which challenges normative values.

In a subculture where we are apparently happy to challenge notions of what is beautiful, what constitutes gender, what constitutes fashion, and the nature of beauty in the face or horror and death, we can all run around condemning someone for choosing to walk about with a leash around their neck.

Well done. You must be so proud. 25+ years of challenging the norm, just to cop the fuck out and conform to what society tells us is normal.

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What?! What?!! People are condemning them for doing that?!

WHAT

WHAT

NO SERIOUSLY

Don't even go near the Whitby Goth Weekend forums. It's so offensive I have indigestion, and my blood is boiling. You would not believe what some people are saying about that couple, who have been courageous enough to stand up for what's right, and have allowed the press loose on their lives. I applaud them for their courage. I may not share their life choice, but by God I will defend their right to live their lives the way they want.

I can't believe that men who wear skirts, make-up, nail polish and have waist length hair are saying things like "Well, going out in public like that, what do they expect?".

I am sick to my stomach.

I've been part of the goth scene for 25 years, and I don't want anything to do with it right now.

What the ever-living fuck. That's disgusting. I'm staying well out of this, because I'll just vomit.

I've met people who did the collar and lead thing in public before, and i was more interested in the reaction of others, as it never bothered me.
It seems we are dealing with a bunch of chavs in goth's clothing....
Whatever next?

Yes, I thought my FL was populated with nice people who wouldn't see anything wrong with this. :)

It's a very rare public post, but I am so sickened by supposedly tolerant people condemning a fairly mild behaviour I felt I had to say something.

Ch@vs in black, how right you are!

Ouf, it's a bit cringeworthy with some of the quotes and all, but other than that?! Kinda reminds me of the "She had it coming in that skirt.." argument -_-

I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing the unsavoury practice of 'blaming the victim' rearing its ugly head.

It's getting fun on LJ_UK also - now we have benefits wank. *rolls eyes* Nooo! you can't possibly have anything expensive while on benefits! You can't save up or get stuff as gifts! I shouldn't have got involved but 'Poor people can't have nice things' makes me stabby.

Benefits wank is when I bow out, there's no arguing with the rabid morons who can't seem to see that sometimes people wind up on the dole through no fault of their own.

"Poor people can't have nice things' makes me stabby, too. I'm not exactly rich, but I save up, or I make things. It's just an extension of all the people who hate paying tax, thinking it all goes to some junkie for crack, rather than all the shit it actually pays for, like wars and roads and Fat Gordon's new suits.

how right you are, (as you well know) I have been part of the alternative scene since 1983 and as the time has passed i see less and less tolerance in 'my' scene. People are so closed minded as the think it is their right if not duty to have a go at the young or those who don't conform to what is GOTH, I choose an alternative life style to do my own thing *not* to be part of a gang who think that everyone must conform and if you don't I will be chastised with a strong post on a newsgroup (which will be retracted if it causes offence because we can't do that either!)
file down those studded belts, someone may get hurt!

I like to think I can tolerate other people's life choices, some days it's easier than others. Today I have more respect for those two kids with their leash than some people twice their age :/ At least they stood up for what was right and have had the balls to go in the papers and on TV to say "We're not taking this" instead of crying into their beer over it.

I hate all those twats with their wee lists of 'What's goth and what's not'. Who gives a shit? If you like it, that's what matters.

I'll bet not one of the wankers calling those kids a disgrace would dare to say it to their faces.

That's fecking bus drivers for you! Good on them for challenging the bus company!

Up in Glasgow you see a few peeps walking like that outside the cathouse and no one bothers their arse and that's the 'normal' folk not caring! Maybe, it's just small town mindedness that's happened to them.

As for the whitby forum, oh dear, I better not read that as half the 'sights' that go there nowadays should probably pick up a few fashion tips from that couple! Lx

Ghost is on the Whitby forum and he was out at Samaritans for a chunk of the day yesterday, so asked me to check to see if he had any PMs etc. I had a wee read to see if there was any stuff about the Weekend or the Ball, or bands, and just...

Words actually failed me.

I'm with you, good on this couple of saying "We're not having this." instead of just bleating about it. That took guts, and I admire that in a person :D

I think we are all missing the bigger issue. Surely this whole thing depends exactly WHICH company they bought the leash from? Was it from an "Approved" overpriced goth vendor? If so, then surely the behaviour is acceptable.

Sorry, bit tongue in cheek there. With ya all the way Marie, they have every right to wander round like that, again not my thing but them again neither is wandering round with a double buggy by the age of 17 and we see that quite often on busses.

Doesnt suprise me that (some) people on the WGW forum are having a go (Although its worth saying I havent looked so cant comment too much) just makes me remember the time I was told "Goths dont do cobwebs sweetie, its a goth growing up thing"

OMG they so totally didn't buy it from Black Rose, or Lip Service! Call the fashion police, it's just not on :D

You can do as many cobwebs as you like, sweetie :D

Hope you are not lumping me in with this. As I said on the forum, I don't feel comfortable with leads, dog collars etc..... but - that is my problem - the bus driver should be 'retrained' at the very least (if only he would even have to do this.....)
Most likely he will have no reprimand for his Gross Misconduct.

Get on there and make a noise, Marie, you know you will have my support.

Of course I'm not lumping you in with them, I know you're not like that :) I mention in a post above - my FL is populated with people who are tolerant, nice and all-round decent people. I saw your post where you said that the driver should be disciplined, and I appreciate that not everyone is comfortable with seeing that sort of thing, I have things I am not comfortable with but as you have said, that's our problem really, not the person displaying the behaviour.

I'm so horrified Bexy, I can't believe what some of those people are saying. Ghost walked away from the PC last night because he couldn't post under forum rules, and he wouldn't do that.

How soon they foget "Stamp Out Prejudice Hatred and Intolerance Everywhere"

This is why I stay out of situations like the posts on the forum.. I lurk.. never say much I have opinions and they are mine.. I have often found the most intolerence comes from with-in "our" own neach of society.. you only have to stand around inthe foyer at the WGW weekend to hear enough bitching to make you want to smack someone..
I have read allthe threads it almost makes one laugh out loud its so preposterous to say things like that and not expect someone to counter the argument.. Ahhh humanity.. doesnt get any better does it no matter how we try

Unfortunately not :( We will just have to continue to lead by example, by being lovely :D

It is fucking stupid, i have to agree.
I can just imagine the moaning and bitching that would have happened if some of the people slagging this couple off had received the same kind of treatment and how they would weep over the lack of tolerance and open minded attitudes in the world.

It's as if the whole S.O.P.H.I.E thing never happened:/

Oh, and apparently it's WRONG to go to the press when you're not getting justice. And the couple in question shouldn't be displaying their 'sexual deviance' in public, in case it frightens children/ old ladies/ keetoms.

I would call them idiots, but I honestly believe that I would be insulting the idiots.

Although, compared to you, I am relatively new to the "goffic" scene, I always can't help but to smile when somebody talks about the openminded goth's. I have not seen that much black-wearing, hairspray-loving people out there who are actually open minded. Especially the majority of the internet alternatives is judgmental.
It is all about wearing the right brands, and listening to the approved music, If you do not do that, than you are not a part of the group. It also seems to me that peopel are way more judgmental on the net, then irl.

About the leash couple, well it is not my cup of tea, but if they want to walk around like that, they should. I am also not a fan of jeans or hawaii shirts, but as long as I do not have to wear it, there is no problem.

Maybe I've just been lucky, the first people I met who were goths were people like dj_no_name (in fact, he is one of them, the poor man's been putting up with me for years!) who were very open-minded and accepting.

I do agree with you that the Internet seems to have introduced a breed of very close-minded people, who seem to revel in mocking difference in others. I mean, I see people get mocked for their weight, their clothes, their sexuality, the fact that they look dumb in pictures, in a way that wouldn't have been acceptable when I started out.

I think people feel protected by the Internet - they are not saying the appalling things to your face, therefore there is a layer of protection in saying them. Unfortunately for most of them, in the UK it's a small scene, and your sins find you out. Quite often you will meet the people you have been calling nasty things on the Internet, and the outcome isn't pretty. I make it a rule to say things to people, in person, if I have somethng to say. I might not be the world's best person, but I am honest.

I agree about the leash, I wouldn't wear one, and Ghost wouldn't lead me round on one. But then, no-one is asking me to. I don't mind them doing it. It's not uncommon, I usually smile to myself and think "Aw, bless them."

You know, I am sure there are some pictures of Siouxsie Sioux from Siouxsie and the Banshees being led around/ leading someone around on a leash. I must try to track those down...

Perhaps it is also a age difference. After all, I am only 21 years old. Some goofy friends of mine are a little older, (40 & 39) and they are much more openminded than the young people.

And yes internet gives people the feeling of security. The dutch scene is also very small. (well it is a very small country) so everybody knows everybody.

Siouxsie Sioux gave a concert at the Melkweg in Amsterdam, and she wore a golden catsuit, now how not-goffic is that ;)

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I am utterly sickened

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S.O.P.H.I.E

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